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Australian National Junior Series so many from OS

Published: 18 Apr 2007 - 11:05 by Viper

Updated: 20 Apr 2007 - 06:18

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Why is there players ( a lot of players ) competing from outside Australia ? especially Malaysia ?

A good thing for a strong comp but is it not for Australia national trials ?

Are the OS players taken out in the final place getters ?

 

http://www.squash.org.au/events/econtent.php?regcid=175

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From rippa rit - 20 Apr 2007 - 06:18

Viper - one win over a higher ranked player does not usually change your ranking. 
Several wins over many higher ranked players will probably make the difference; and often what happens, especially in juniors, just when they look like they are flying, they dive.



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From Viper - 19 Apr 2007 - 23:57   -   Updated: 19 Apr 2007 - 23:58

Quote

"hang on viper

os players do NOT get ranked in australia!"

Exactly my point.

 

Now having OS players may well and probably is a good thing, clearly it strengthens the comp, what I am trying to clarify is :

Given this is the main tournament for selection of "AUSTRALIAN" junior teams would one not expect the rankings would be best achieved by having the Australian playing against themselves rather than against OS players  ?

Seems odd, but maybe this is the norm in squash ? This is all I am trying to clarify.

I mean if you want to see if Mary Is better than Betty, Joe is better than David, etc would you not play a tournament where they will compete against each other rather than playing an OS junior that has no bearing on the Australian rankings ?

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From raystrach - 19 Apr 2007 - 23:27

hang on viper

os players do NOT get ranked in australia!

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From rippa rit - 19 Apr 2007 - 21:51

Viper - not necessarily as it depends on the criteria being met stated in para 6, reg 31, as you stated above.
Viper I know of players who have not satisfied criteria set out for selection, and even though a player may have performances to justify their spot in a team, they have been scrubbed/overlooked.   A very good example which you can relate to:
The year Heather Blundell (Mackay) won her first Australian Womens Championship, she was not selected in the official NSW Womens Team, and did not represent her State in those titles.
Heather had not satisfied the selection criteria, and the fact that she won the National Champs made no difference.  In fact, I would go as far as to say she may not have been an affiliated player at that time either, a necessary requirement for tournament entry at that level.

My advice, unless you have a student, daughter or family member being affected by this protocol, don't go there...it will save a lot of headaches and heartache too.

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From Viper - 19 Apr 2007 - 17:02   -   Updated: 19 Apr 2007 - 23:28

Um.................... I am learning things so that has to be a positive.

Let me put the question another way.......................................

Better still I will attempt to answer it myself :

Quote :

Regulation 31 - Selection Policy For Australian Junior Teams

(12 April 2005)


View print friendly page

Selection Events And Procedures

4. The selection of the Australian Junior Team will adhere to the following process:

  1. National Junior Series - comprising two events held in April (or thereabouts) and one event in May/June (a minimum of 6 weeks prior to the World Junior Championships) each year after which the team including one reserve will be selected (five athletes will be nominated by the selectors) based on the criteria in paragraph 6 below; and
  2. The team including the reserve (five athletes in total) will compete in the Trans-Tasman Test Series against New Zealand or alternative international event prior to the world junior team championships (results of which may be used towards final selection or position of members of the team).

So as I was so desperately trying to understand this current event IS the basis by which representitive Australian Junior teams are selected....so my question still stands the OS player ranking achieved would be removed and the Australian rankings shuffled up.

ie.  if there was 4 OS players in the top 10 of say the under 17 boys then Australian kids ranked outside the top 5 may still end up top 5 when the OS players are discounted, yes ?

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From raystrach - 19 Apr 2007 - 15:26

hope this answers your question...

  • there are no official teams in these tournaments although some states may bring a squad. ie anyone can enter bearing in mind age constraints
  • it provides a chance for all players to widen the scope of their opponents
  • rankings wise, it not only provides a guide to selectors for those who actually play, it also helps place those who have not attended
    • juniors improve at different rates so last year's form may not be accurate.
    • if a player who does not attend is ahead or behind those that do attend, they can be ranked accordingly relative to more local form
    • it creates a more accurate ranking for later in the year for the national junior titles
  • no one is "selected" directly from performances here except in some circumstances, but again, to my knowledge, local form also comes into it
how are we going now!?

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From rippa rit - 19 Apr 2007 - 15:04   -   Updated: 19 Apr 2007 - 15:23

Viper I looked at Squash Aust site and Q Squash and I cannot see that this Junior Series is other than a tournament really.
I know that Zac's brother is playing down south right now, and he would be looking for recognition on a national level in his age group.
Most likely some kids would be funded to attend, and some would have had to fund raise with chook raffles, etc to be able to make it.  Zac said his Dad paid his own way to be with Jacob.

If you, as an up and coming junior, cannot attend you would definitely be disadvantaged for sure.  When it is funded by Associations the best players compete, but when it is funded out of personal pockets not necessarily the best players get to compete.

Fact - tough times for squash in this country over the last 10 years.
This link might help http://www.squash.org.au/groupcategories.php?id=1&disp=future

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From Viper - 19 Apr 2007 - 12:12

But where are the squads chosen from and is this Junior national tournament part of the selection process ?

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From rippa rit - 19 Apr 2007 - 12:09

Viper - there is no difference whether you are an Open player of an Under 19 17 15 player the system still works the same, in Australia that is. 
If you are 15 but good enough to be ranked in U19 so be it.

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From Viper - 19 Apr 2007 - 09:01

Thanks for all that info Rita.

 

Let me put it another way, when and how are the under age national squads decided upon ? I think Ray has offered a partial answer, ie is there one closed tournament to decide rankings or do open tournaments like this play a part.

 

I am only talking junior Australian under aged here

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From rippa rit - 19 Apr 2007 - 06:48   -   Updated: 19 Apr 2007 - 07:00

Viper - we cannot get on the same wave link here.
Firstly, about rankings:
World Rankings are what they mean, ie ranked in the world of squash (all countries).
European Rankings are what they mean, ie all players who reside/live in their mother country.
Australian Rankings are what they mean, ie Aussie players unless they do what John White and a few others have done - and they do this because of their heritage, and mostly because the competition in Oz is so fierce they could not make it, but overseas were around the top of the ladder in that country.
Because rankings are done over maybe 8 tournaments the fact that a player gets knocked out by an overseas player does not ruin their rankings at home. Even to be beaten can not necessarily destroy a ranking providing the performance was excellent, and the opponent was WR.  The fact that the players are senior or junior does not really change the system.
For Ramy who is just out of juniors to keep winning Open world events with a full field is amazing for one so young.  If he had stayed in junior tournaments and not entered the Open field he would not have the ranking, or the experience to do what he is doing.

Secondly about competition:
The top players in any Club, State or Country always have to go further a field to get competition, as without the variety of competition their games will not develop. So we have club champs, interclub champs, intra state champs, interstate champs, State champs, also teams, then Aussie champs which gives players a chance to keep climbing, and once they feel they need more they then reach out further.
Often a player wants a crack at another player and has to go miles to try to get the chance to improve their ranking; players cannot jump the ladder without rungs on the board.

System:
In a lot of tournaments they actually have a knockout type system set up so the winners go one way, the losers the other way in the draw, which then gives an opportunity for people who meet the top seed first round to prove themselves.  They then end up with winner pool 1, pool 2, pool 3, pool 4 and it keeps the players on the court, especially if they have travelled 10000 miles at great cost.

If this explanation does not do it, I am stumped.

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From Viper - 18 Apr 2007 - 21:38

I am not making myself clear here, having OS talent playing is a great thing the more the better.

The question I am asking is:

I thought this Australian Junior tournament resulted in seedings that go a long way to determining who would make the age group squads and if so, do they discount the OS players that ended up ranked in the top places and just push all the Australians kids up the ranking ladder ? 

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From raystrach - 18 Apr 2007 - 21:21

i think it is in everyone's interest that those kids from malaysia play in tournaments such as this.
  • it gives our kids a chance to play players they would otherwise not be able to
  • these tournaments, while they do contribute to age group rankings, are not closed events  or championships as such, they simply provide our top young players a chance to play against others (whether 11, 12 and 13 year old players should be playing in national tournaments is another question altogether)
  • the participation by those from other countries has no real effect on rankings of the local players
  • overall it only does good for our local players (unless i missed something)

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From rippa rit - 18 Apr 2007 - 20:33

Viper - so OS means overseas which is not how I read the original post.
The things that bring overseas players or even interstate players to compete in a tournament (NQ can be as far away as other countries,say, SA or Victoria), eg have a holiday, improve their rankings, sponsored, good prize money, invitation, Govt assistance, rich parents, prize from winning a previous tournament.

This is pretty normal thinking of Associations as far as I know, and there could be many reasons, on an individual basis, for this which we might never really find out.  My experience tells me:
  • Club/Association have money in the budget (or have budgeted) to send x number of top players overseas for experience each year. One condition might then be for those players to hand back the prizemoney to offset the cost.
  • Players to have a crack at a player ranked above them (maybe they played badly last time and think they were under-rated).
  • To intice sponsors to put up big dollars to attract top world seeds; no top seeds no sponsorship, otherwise, it is hard to rake up the big prizemoney.
  • Usually there is a lead up to events, like a player's circuit, so to justify the expense players can do a tournament circuit, say, State Open Titles, eg Qld Open, NSW Open, Victorian Open then go on to the Nationals.
  • Better PSA points for the tournament if there are x number of WR players competing.
  • Reciprocal arrangements between Associations.
  • Pressure from countries, eg Oz has their top players competing overseas for months at a time, so that then puts an obligation for them to reverse the favour.
  • Australia is a good country to visit too when it is miserable overseas, and they can get free accommodation from the local player's families.
  • The bigger the prizemoney the bigger the field.
No results of any one tournament produce seedings.  For the PSA it is points accumulating from various tournaments, and the more points per tournament (which is determined by the number of WR seeded players in the draw).  That is to say, three big tournaments won could bring about more points than 6 little underrated ones.
Each Country/Association usually have a set criteria, which the players are aware of, and selectors get those results to then get the seeding list. 

Nothing is cut and dried so to speak. 

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From allanbickham - 18 Apr 2007 - 19:08

Why is there players ( a lot of players ) competing from outside Australia ? especially Malaysia ?  Because Malaysia considers Squash as important as any Olympic sport according to an interview done in last years WISPA KL Open and provides the same financial support.  It is also good to directly compare our juniors with other nations.

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From Viper - 18 Apr 2007 - 16:58

Yes but is it not true that the results of this tournament produce seedings that will determine Australian squads ?

If so why is there OS players competing ?

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From rippa rit - 18 Apr 2007 - 15:13   -   Updated: 18 Apr 2007 - 15:15

Open Championships are for Open events (all affiliated players); Closed Events or Championships are for only those affiliated players from that particular country/city/State..
A closed championship will mostly only attract local sponsorship;  an open championship will attract a national or international sponsor. For example
  • NSW Open is open to all affiliated players.
  • NSW Closed is only open to NSW affiliated players. (Often used to pick NSW teams, and seed NSW players).
  • Australian Open Is open to all affiliated players.
  • Australian Closed is open to all affiliated State players (to find an Australian Champion and to find the true Australian seedings). Also the Australian State Teams Event is usually run in conjunction with, or following, and can serve to seed Oz players.

Get the idea?

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