Viper - i guess it is just go with the flow at this point. 
I do know the more players we use the more individuality we will get;
the more variation of style and technique, and so on.

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Thanks Rita, I think this is a fantastic innovation you and Ray are putting together, more power to you.

You say there will be different scenerios but clearly you won't present more than one technique style ?

I am suggesting that the one style you do go for may not be as clear cut as it appears, for instance that backhand demonstrated in the sample video does not resemble what I observe by most top players.

 

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viper - we will have many videos, using many players, doing many things, from many different angles, showing a variety of senarios, but so far we have just given you a sample of what is to come and asked the members to comment.

We appreciate your feedback and your comments as it is for our members.

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Thats all well and good Rita, but we are not on court but online, you can only present one version of technique in your videos.

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Thanks Ray for that explanation - it is an ok explanation for what I have said, and makes it simple though it does not take into account the individuality of coaching players which was my other point.
Suffice to say we are talking about playing (I think that is what we are talking about) and not coaching (which is what I think some people are talking about).  Brrrrrrrrr

'Cos coaching a student that has certain characteristics in their style and stature presents a whole new set of criteria for consideration, called individuality.  Individuality covers problems that need attention from each individual, and they usually amount to something like this, when approaching to hit a shot, eg

• student moves to the ball front on (facing the front wall)
• student faces the side wall as soon as the ball comes off the front wall to be prepared, and then bunny hops all the way down the court to the ball.
• student gets parallel to the side wall, gets to the ball, and forgets to take the racket back early enough (no swing).
• student prepares early, and then turns towards the front wall in the process of going forward (racket seems to be tied to their front leg).
• student plays a game and runs straight to the ball and collides with their opponent.
• student takes a stance that enables them to see the ball and then has to take the circular motion (arc) to avoid the opponent, and arrives late to the ball (ball too low now or has gone too far back within the court).
• student is in the centre, opponent behind, both go straight (one to the middle, one to the ball) and gets in the way or hit with the opponent's racket (going in a more circular motion (arc) might have avoided this situation).
• student goes to recover the ball at the back wall and turns the shoulder around and then says they cannot see the ball while facing in this direction.

Well, I could go on and I usually do - a good coach needs to be flexible and adaptable to get the end result, which should be, eg

•  improved player performance,
• better movement,
• balance,
• technique/swing
• accuracy
• recovery
• high level of skill (limited errors)
• etc etc

My motto has been -  I don't need to see the coach (awful style, abrupt, uses wrong terms,etc) but I do need to see the results of their coaching reflected in their students and that means eliminating all of the above mentioned problems.

That is why coaching is an art.

Seen a few coaches with no hair lately?  Well they pulled it out, as the words written in the text book did not apply to the situation they were confronted with and their students did not improve as expected. 

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hi all

to clarify what rita had to say...

• everyone looks at things differently depending what they want
• do you want power, control, deception, touch??
• you cannot necessarily have it all - you will need to compromise depending on  what you want/need

to apply it to this discussion...

• more shoulder turn is fine - it will give you more power for sure
• but with more moving parts you get less control
• if you have heaps of time to set up - it is probably ok depending where you are in the court
• if you don't have much time - probably not so good for any number of reasons

and so to this matter of approach..

a mate of mine did a study as part of his masters, studying these things

• you get more power from an open stance - which is what you get when you approach to the side of the ball
• as opposed to the more closed stance when you come in in an arc
• you have the added benefit of gaining the momentum of your own movement (a la a hockey swing - adam sandler style in golf) in generating power into the ball as you are going in the direction of the ball
• which actually raises an interesting point
• imagine trying to hit the golf ball when running at it from a 90 deg angle to the direction of the hit - it would be impossible
• but doing it from behind the ball would be possible as adam sandler showed - didn't he win the us  open in that movie?
  
• but seriously, hockey makes a better comparison than golf
• you also get far more deception when hitting this way, because you have more options in terms of the point of contact
• when i was first coached by rita over 30 years ago she taught me the arced style of movement -  i really though we had moved on from  there. i simply do not have the agility to play that way any more - it is much harder!
  

there is no comparison efficiency wise, in the direct approach v the arced approach

• the shoulder facing the side wall is already open (technically) unless you are referring to the metaphorical opening of the shoulders
• if you want to get more turn - that is very easy

i have been coaching a bloke for a few months and he used an arced approach to the ball at the front and the number of times he would misjudge the length and overrun the ball was incredible. if he uses  the more direct approach as he does most times now, he never misjudges because he has far more control over when he hits it

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I am with sparty on this one Rita, too left field for me as well

Quote by Ray:

quote: "But,  quote : "moving straight to the side of the ball" greatly eliminates the range of shoulder rotation possible"

why?

 

Because when you move staright to the side of the ball ( like in the backhand video) the body/shoulder alignment is already facing the side wall, if the player then wanted to open the shoulders they would have to stop, pivot, rotate and then undertake a swing, not very practical.

If on the other hand one approaches the ball in more of an arc you naturally arrive at the ball with an open shoulder stance already, all you have to do then is unleash, just as one does at the top of a golf swing.

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sparty - yep we are talking about squash, but more importantly squash players.

I tried to explain the more exposure you have to a topic how it deepens the understanding of the elements.  I used cars as a generalisation of how everybody has different key elements when they look at something, ie cars, game of squash, squash technique.

My mind then started to go into the area of individual specifics and why we are all so different etc.not only in mind but in body, and I tried to find a down to earth discussion paper on segmenting of muscles, sequential actions, etc  I had been to the University ages ago where bowling in cricket was being analysed by digital muscle imaging on computer, and got a further understanding on our individual differences and how that applies to sport.
This is the most simple link I could find which might open up another thought process
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/160/1/167.pdf
Unfortunately it is not a squash specific paper.

Sparty, if you feel none of what I say applies to this topic, that is OK don't worry about it.
Take what you want from the discussion, and just leave the rest.

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"On a positive note, I hope during the course of our videos, we can discuss the videos, the situations, the purpose of the hit, the important factors applying to each court position so that we can then sort out the main features that apply, so we know what we are looking for.  Every situation has a key element, and we must be able to focus on those things in context.
Can I just say, we look at a really nice car, and some say how lovely, snassy, impressive, up market, and all the stuff; and the connoisseurs say "heap of trash" - others want a compromise, sound, steady, economical, good feel, safe - then, the speedsters say, good cornering, perfect steering, fast, sleek lines, aero-dynamic - I say, wanna hook up the trailer to go to the dump, want a good car to drive, sick of driving a truck, good seat for my back, easy steering for my shoulders, good ride, can go off road if need be, retains its value...........

are you all still with me on this one?"

err...not really.

I honestly have no clue what your talking about. What point are you making? are we still talking about squash???

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Wow - if we can have this bit of dialogue out of a shoulder movement imagine what sort of discussions GOLD will bring about.....gloves and all, maybe!! 

Hey, the shoulder is for weight transfer - right?
Weight transfer is for power - right?
The more levers that move and take over in unison give the flow and effortless power- right?

Hey, the shoulder if moving out of unison (with the stroking) creates inaccuracy - Right?
To control the ball, the less movement within all the body parts at the point of contact make for arm control, body balance, wrist control, direction control. - right?

If the opponent has given the power, you are under pressure, control is the essence of the reply, since you just want time to get back into position and recover - right?

If you want more power you then rotate the shoulder, take a bigger backswing, have more leverage, unwind, and that creates power and speed - right?
Not sure why you would want more power while under pressure but anyway ----
For speed and power probably might use the shoulder, wrist, arm, body to get the speed and power - right? Better look at John White for that one I suppose.

So, horses for courses -

On a positive note, I hope during the course of our videos, we can discuss the videos, the situations, the purpose of the hit, the important factors applying to each court position so that we can then sort out the main features that apply, so we know what we are looking for.  Every situation has a key element, and we must be able to focus on those things in context.
Can I just say, we look at a really nice car, and some say how lovely, snassy, impressive, up market, and all the stuff; and the connoisseurs say "heap of trash" - others want a compromise, sound, steady, economical, good feel, safe - then, the speedsters say, good cornering, perfect steering, fast, sleek lines, aero-dynamic - I say, wanna hook up the trailer to go to the dump, want a good car to drive, sick of driving a truck, good seat for my back, easy steering for my shoulders, good ride, can go off road if need be, retains its value...........

are you all still with me on this one?

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quote: "But,  quote : "moving straight to the side of the ball" greatly eliminates the range of shoulder rotation possible"

why?

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Indeed the ball is moving, but in your teaching ( and videos ) like golf at the driving range your are feeding balls to groove a basic swing plane that will be repeatable when in a fast match play under pressure, under that pressure we all know our technique is compromised but that does not take away from the importance of grooving a strong repeatable swing on the practice court, ie the importance of a sound technique is equally important whether the ball is stationary on a tee or moving quickly around a squash court.

 

quote :

"and by the way, i am not arguing against shoulder rotation per se."

But,  quote : "moving straight to the side of the ball" greatly eliminates the range of shoulder rotation possible

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the only difference between squash and golf is that the ball is laying at your feet on a tee and saying "please hit me"

in squash it is smashed around by some evil maniac at up to 200kph and it's saying "try to hit me"

and by the way, i am not arguing against shoulder rotation per se.

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The two most recent squash technique dvds Power and Palmer both play with a lot of shoulder rotation to the back wall, especially on the backhand, added to that most pro players I watch do the same.

Just like golf rotation and counter rotation at contact make up the basis of the power derived with the racket. Because of the open rotation on the backswing it then allows contact to be when the shoulders are pointing to the target, which is very much what you want, a squash swing has the same principals in my mind.

Approaching the ball from the outside allows more room to move and better alignment at contact I find. It also means you arrive at the ball with a more open shoulder set up giving you a greater range of motion.

Taking the shortest route in anything in life is very often not the best option.

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last time i checked, my arm was attached to my shoulder. it is a great marker of how you are doing. it determines how you swing the racket!!!

having said that, as a coach you will not necessarily tell a student to get your shoulder in this or that line (although you might) you will try to get them to achieve it in another way which is perhaps easier, for the student to measure and evaluate

 the alignment of the shoulders can be the  the direction of the hit. this especially true on the backhand. balance is important on every shot.

i look for balance and smoothness or flow rather than being picky with things that are often individual - we all have biomechanical differences. picking up the ball early is far more important than whether you have a certain 20deg of shoulder turn or 30 deg. what is the good of any of that if you arrive too late to hit the bloody thing!! getting in and out of the shot quickly is of paramount importance

do you really want me to go on??

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Yeah, when I am in a hurry I will go staight to the side, especially if I am likely to crash into the wall.
Then, if I am playing Ray and want to get to the corner that he has left, I probably might take the arc route, for safety sake.

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Just thinking about the way i play (a looong break between teaching sessions!), i have realised that it is mainly off the boast i move in an arc whereas for a drop i would move much straighter.  I normally move straight into the back UNLESS it looks like it will come off the back wall and move towards the middle of the court in which case i move in more of an arc and use a bit of reach to make sure i get to the ball if it doesn't come as far as i thought.  I find that having room between me and the ball is very useful! 

Ray can you describe a bit more what you mean by shoulder alignment being more important than feet or shoulder turn as this is something i have never really heard before.

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if ryanair has a flight through madrid for $10 plus tax, i will probably go via madrid crashing notwithstanding.

or maybe i want to visit my wild spanish girlfriend there.

but most likely this will not be the case. there will be times i might need/want or are forced to go another way, but for the most part i will go the quickest and cheapest way ( and of course do my bit for global warming)

and the other lucky thing is, that planes have wheels and rudders etc which help it fine tune its direction which mean that when it is in paris, it does not have to worry at that stage, whether it is going to be davinci or the other one - (i think there is another one) - it can make the small adjustments closer to arrival

i make this point in the short forehand video.

you want to have options - you may or may not want to put shoulder turn into the stroke - it depends on the situation

ps - the feet are of secondary importance - overall balance and the alignment of your shoulders (as opposed to shoulder turn) is more important - when you are racing around at a million miles an hour, balance is everything.

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well if I was flying to rome in straight line but that meant I could only land facing the wrong direction, I would rather fly to madrid first and not risk a crash landing!

Joking aside, Ray, as you clearly teach moving 'straight to the side of the ball', I am interested in at what point do you change the way you are facing to the sidewall. otherwise you would be facing into the front corner to play the drive would you not? (in the given example of the drop/drive) or do you also say that you don't need to face the sidewall to play drives?

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am i going to north east Rome or south west Rome...... 

 

while flippant..... my answer is actually more about the detail  and surely there are instances where either method is more preferable over each other.  i certainly dont always go in 'banana' shaped at the front.  mostly to disallow my opponant an early view of the ball and my shot. (plus i am too slow to get there any other way)!!

however at the back i tend to try and curve my run whenever possible as it leaves me with more options. 

this week i have been shown how to play off my wrong foot in the forehand back corner for when i have only been able to go in a straight to the ball and the opponant has noted this and moving over for the line kill.   enables greater openness to the shoulders to get an unexpected cross in.

 

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let me put it this way:

if you were travelling from london to rome, would you go via paris or madrid?

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I am currently being taught to move in an arc to balls in the front of the court, especially off a boast, to ensure i get enough distance between me and the ball with my feet still in the correct position.  I have found this very useful in matches as well but yet i seem to move straight to the ball when it is in the back corners or off a drop in the front court.

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interesting thoughts

regarding backhand technique.....Having done some close watching of pro players and the top guys at my club I have found that 90% of players have a shoudler turn on backhand drives, with elbow tucked right in and kind of 'wind up the shot'  for more power from the body and shoulders (watch JP's backhand in his 'Exposed DVD') however, I must note that one exception I have found is that Nick Matthew plays with VERY similar technique to the young lad in the video we have been questioning here (moves with racket up in front of him to play drive at front of court, keeps elbow out from body and has quite a big swing, yet doesn't 'wind up' the shot with his shoulder)

regarding movement, it would be interesting to know why the arc method has been outdated and what were the reasons for this as I found that this was one thing that helped me get my feet right when I was learning, On how to approach the ball, my coach said "always move through the 'T' where possible, and move in a banana shape to the ball so you are facing the side wall to play the shot"

have I been taught wrong for the modern game?

Sparty

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viper:
"Running straight at the ball cramps ...."

me:
"move straight to the side of the ball..."
spot the vital difference

this link might also be relevant

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Yeah. They tought this at the coaching course. They said that 2 people should be able to travel on the same straight line to the same back corner if they were having a own the wall rally..

Although sometimes a curved run-up would help, as it may give some deception, by running in one way, it may look like you are goin to hit it that way, but you may infact hit it another way.

Not quite sure if it would work. Probably not.

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